I was driving home from work the other evening, and I noticed that up ahead on Interstate 81 traffic was slowing down. Just as this happened, coincidentally, my wife called me on the phone to tell me that there was an accident on the highway, as she had passed it on the way home minutes before. I told her she was too late trying to warn me, that I was stuck in the resulting traffic, but that, even though it was moving slowly, it was moving, so I should be home soon. Sure enough, within a few minutes, I was abreast of the accident. It was off the roadway on the right, but the traffic backup was caused by the numerous fire engines, EMS vehicles and police cars that had commandeered the right lane, forcing all traffic into the remaining lane. As I went by and rubber-necked a bit (come on, its human nature to be concerned) I noticed that the emergency personnel were in the process of trying to remove someone from the vehicle. It looked like they had to rip open the car to get him/her out, and they had a stretcher and an ambulance waiting to whisk him/her to the hospital. There must have been 20 men and women working at the scene. If I had been religious, I would have whispered a prayer of relief, but as it was, I still thought to myself that the little I knew meant that, at least, the person being extricated from the vehicle was still alive. Of course I thought…
…where was god?
Clearly, not close by, or even in the general vicinity. He had failed to use his magical powers to prevent the accident from happening, though I can hear those of a religious nature saying that it could have been worse, but for god. However, I was focused on the actual work being done to help. I saw a very organized team of men and women, people who had trained for just this situation, using equipment and knowledge purchased by the taxpayers, probably with the help of some charitable contributions to volunteer companies, doing exactly what they had probably dedicated a portion of their lives to doing - saving the lives of others.
Did god have anything to do with this, I asked myself, rhetorically?
No. Of course not. It could have been worse, truly, but not because of god. Aside from the fact that he doesn’t exist, (and please, no comments about the word “fact’) if no humans, fellow citizens of this accident victim, had taken the time to learn what to do in this situation, and had joined together with other humans to ensure the best result from the proper application of their training and equipment, this victim would have new initials.
D.O.A.
Speaking of D.O.A., a terrible slew of twisters ripped through the Bible belt the other night, killing dozens of people, injuring more, destroying families along with millions of dollars in property, and generally causing many people to forget the Presidential primaries that were held in 24 states that day. The same class of people I saw on the highway mobilized to save those who could be saved and ameliorate the suffering of the injured and the ones who lost so much, and then proceeded with the process of cleaning up and rebuilding. Yes, a lot of people worked overtime, and a lot of people had their skills and training tested and stretched to the limits. People relied on other people, their friends, neighbors, family and total strangers, to assist them in their time of dire need.
But where was god?
This man thinks he knows:
“I think God was holding my leg, beating my ass, teaching me that I hadn’t been doing everything he wanted me to do,” he said.
Apparently he missed the real lesson in this tragedy, though it could have been the whiskey talking.
FEMA has been called out by our President, and will in due course provide assistance to the area. And what is FEMA? FEMA is people. People who are employed by the federal government to provide assistance to stricken areas of the US in times of emergency and catastrophe (New Orleans notwithstanding). People who have been trained, usually not only as an occupation, but as a vocation, to help other people in times of need. Human beings who know suffering when they see it, and do their damnedest to alleviate it. People who will go out of their way to make sure you don’t have to.
Human catastrophe brings out the best in people. To be more precise, human catastrophe brings out the human in people. Humans helping humans; empathetic, sympathetic humans, seeing themselves in other’s suffering, and being the best that human beings can be to one another. There is no god in that equation.
Even when it is religious people who form the responding parties of assistance, be it churches, Red Cross, whatever, those groups are composed of humans. When people need help, people respond. Not god.
There were the men who jumped into their four-wheel-drive vehicles to carry injured adults and crying children to main roads. There were teams of men with chain saws clearing roads and clambering through debris. And there were the 300 or so emergency personnel, many of them hit by the storm themselves, who responded to the vast disaster scene, oftentimes within 20 minutes.
“They were there so fast,” says Steve Gutierrez, a local builder. “A lot of these people live right here in town, and the response was immense.”
The odds are that there was a mish-mash of spiritual beliefs in those 300 or so emergency personnel, from fundamentalist, Baptists, Catholics, Hindu’s and even atheists. What they had in common was not some religious belief, but the human connection. They would have done the same thing in the same circumstances regardless of their religious beliefs, or lack thereof.
To me, it’s supremely arrogant and nearsighted to posit a god who allows such horrible devastation to be visited upon the species he supposedly designed the world for, the one he created in his own image and loved the most, then claim that it was the same god that was responsible for cleaning up afterward, and for sparing the survivors! Why is that humans give no credit to themselves for the acts of unselfishness and heroism they rise to in times of crisis? Humanity is inherently good, and it’s times like the examples above that the proof shows up in the pudding. Yet religion has so denigrated the positive side of human nature, by postulating fictional explanations for the negative, such as sin and Satan, that we are unable to give or take credit for what we are.
We need to recognize something our ancestors figured out long ago - that we are on this planet alone, that there is no one out there keeping an eye on us, that we will be alright as long as we stick together. We need to remain confident in our abilities to take care of ourselves, and stop relying on a spiritual crutch to convince us that we can do exactly what we can do without it.
So where was god? Nowhere.
God was finding an outhouse for some poor . . .
I agree. God was (is, will be) nowhere.
I’m one of those people who gets ‘called out’, away from my regular job, to provide support for firefighters or rescue teams (I was at the World Trade Center incident for 3 weeks, and was at Katrina for two). The people I work with are (at least at the Federal level) volunteers. We get paid, but its not in the job description for our positions.
As far as the fire companies using donated equipment (or equipment paid for through donations), I say bravo to the people who donate. But it also angers me: we can spend billions on new aircraft with little forseeable use, but we can’t adequately fund FEMA, or rescue companies.
Time for a leap, here. I think I understand why the no-tax conservatives are willing to ally themselves with the theocratic christians. Theocratic christians think that ‘god will provide,’ either through amelioration of the disaster, or through charity. No-tax conservatives see this as a way to cut spending on infrastructure and recovery. If god will provide, why should Americans pay taxes?
I’ve noticed that whenever tragedy strikes, those who survive credit god. It doesn’t matter if they were the only survivors and everyone else died horrible deaths - they praise their god. It seems like one massive “fuck you” to the families of those who died.
As has been pointed out elsewhere by our able coconspirators in the atheist rebellion, the same states that were battered by the tornadoes were the ones that Mike Huckabee, who is apparently god’s anointed to huck over the country as the next President, won in the primaries.
So, was god punishing them for voting for god’s guy? Or was god sending a message that the Huckster is a huckster and a shuckster, a danger to all god’s chilluns? Or maybe god was just punishing the folk who voted against the Huckster? Which one is it? Let’s hear from the god folk. Surely god’s grubby little fingers were poked into this pie. What did he mean, what did he mean? C’mon, inquiring atheist minds want to know.
Well they always have an answer like god works through the paramedics or that the whole thing is a lesson to us. More like something to exploit by the religious. Can anyone name an example of a horrific disaster where some religious bastard didn’t cite it as evidence of god’s wrath at society’s “sins”? Tough, isn’t it? I don’t think you can.
My reaction to seeing accidents is I try to figure out what happened and then get pissed at who I think was the one who caused it. Considering the terrible driving I experience every time I hit the road, I can say if there is a god he’s got his hands full keeping these idiots from smashing all the time.
PhillyChief: And don’t forget, the rescue workers rarely get the credit. If they do a good job, it was ‘god,’ not the people who have devoted their lives to helping others.
I’m with (Parenthetical). I, too go out during times of trouble.
This alleged deity seems to take a scattershot approach, a lot of collateral damage while teaching individuals lessons.
I work for a non-profit organization, I work consistently with people who, for a variety of reasons, some of them religious, give time, money and goods to their neighbors. It’s humbling and inspiring to work with such people. Thanks for writing a tribute to them.
God was making it happen a second or so after or before some religious type got there, so they could give him the credit for not killing them…
hi Spinnach inc.,
i just saw the tittle here. is this one of those games where you have to find the hidden guy? im pretty good at walldo but i dont know if id be good at god. in case you didnt know, God can hide ANY WHERE!!!!!!!
nobody ever sees him oxcept for PROFITS!!!!!!!!
Ahhhhh. The ‘PROFITS.’ Can I make as much there as I could in private business?
(Parenthetical) - Judging by the lavish lifestyles of some of God’s most humble servant televangelists, you can make a hell of lot more as one of his prophets than you can in legitimate business.
There are a great many interesting, well written posts on this page to which I could have appended my two cents worth. But this one caught my eye, so here goes:
My problem is that as soon as someone tells me not to do something, I just have to go and do it. ;>
Let’s get a little help from those good people at dictionary.com, shall we?
Fact: Knowledge or information based on real occurrences; something that actually exists; reality; truth:
Opinion: a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty. 2.a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
As soon as anyone, theist OR atheist, begins to posit their opinions on the existence/non-existence of god as fact, I just get all contumacious; I can’t help myself. To theist and atheist alike I say: believe or disbelieve what you will, but please don’t pass it off as “fact”.
Part of the problem here is that, in a way, you’re making the same mistake that the theists make, insofar as you make the assumption that if God existed, he/she/it would be constantly meddling in the lives of humans. As you correctly point out, the evidence of this happening is subjective at best.
But this in no way disproves the existence of god. It simply means that (not surprisingly) humans’ grasp of this concept is flawed and limited.
-Smith
“But this in no way disproves the existence of god. It simply means that (not surprisingly) humans’ grasp of this concept is flawed and limited.”
This is old hat, but where’s the proof of a god’s(any of them) existence?
How can the grasp of something which has no evidence be flawed and limited?
Is my understanding of leprechauns flawed because I say it’s a fact that they don’t exist?
Is it just that I can’t see leprechauns working their leprechaun magic because I am unworthy? If so, why am I not worthy to witness the leprechaun greatness? Can I at least meet people that have witnessed a leprechaun’s works?
Love the new Rastafarian, Milli Vanilli, Naked Chick Christ Marley and the Wailers Last Supper Theme… very nice!
Openned the “fishwrapper” this morning, and, Lo!
A woman managed to run off the road yesterday and dump her car in the river. One of the coldest days of the year, she made it out, luckily, someone stopped for her and got her help and kept her warm.
Yep, god did it all, saved her life, sent someone for her.
I STILL can’t figure out why these great christians regard it as a good thing that they get a deferment from a trip they all claim to be aching in every joint to make.
You are confusing “proof” with “evidence”. There is no conclusive proof of god’s existence. There is, however, evidence that some higher power may have been at work here. Many people see the creation of life, and of a universe capable of sustaining life, as evidence of the existence of some higher power. Science, for all its wonderful advances (and I mean that sincerely) still cannot explain either. One might call speculation of the existence of a higher power a “warranted belief”. But proof? Certainly not. But reason enough, in my opinion, to keep an open mind.
That comment was aimed more at theists than atheists.
And you say MY argument is old hat? You could just as easily have used the Invisible Pink Unicorn, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the Celestial Teapot. Not a very good analogy, I’m afraid. The fact that one cannot disprove the existence of any product of your imagination really has little bearing on the existence of god.
Now, if one is trying to mount a case for the existence of specific conceptions of god (Thor, Jupiter, Jehovah, etc.)by saying you can’t disprove their existence, then yes, the leprechaun argument is valid. But the concept of god, in its broad,deistic sense, is not analogous to leprechauns.
Come to Boston on St. Patrick’s day and I’ll show you plenty.
MoR
OK. You’re good at dictionary use. I anticipated that with my parenthetical statement, didn’t I? Now, go look up the word “hyperbole”. It’s my blog, it was my comment, I was making my point, and if want to use hyperbole, I can do so. So there. Phhhtttttpp!
Actually, I welcome your comment. I specifically put that there, because I am an atheist, and I hoped to provoke a response. I want people to disagree with me, especially theists. It makes for a lively comment section. I’m glad you bit. Now it’s my turn.
That’s a pretty sweeping observation. I presume you can back that up? Your next sentence says
Certainly that’s not the evidence you’re referring to, is it? Surely you agree that what “people see” (i.e. their opinions) is not evidence. In fact, you’ve already said that.
Pot.kettle.black. (You don’t find your last sentence ironic?)
Actually, it’s not old hat. And if it is, some old hats are still the best. Why, I have a fedora that…I’m digressing. The Invisible Pink Unicorn, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the Celestial Teapot are all great analogies, because when it comes down to it, there is just as much “evidence” for them as their is for god. In fact, god is just another word for Invisible Pink Unicorn, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the Celestial Teapot. In any argument they are interchangeable.
One might call speculation of the existence of a higher power a “warranted belief”
One might call determining whether you’ll have a good day or not or whether today is a good day for washing the car, proposing marriage, making an investment or playing the lottery based on the positions of astral bodies in relation to their positions when you were born as a “warranted belief”.
One might make the above decisions based on the numbers involved like this lady and consider that a “warranted belief”.
One might call lining their hats with tinfoil in order to block the CIA’s mind reading apparatus as a “warranted belief”.
Some might think that the way to cure epileptic seizures is to drive out the demons causing them through exorcism that involves chaining the victim to a cross and denying food and water for days as a “warranted belief”.
Of course believing such things or the fact that a lot of people may buy into believing these things does not make them “warranted beliefs”. What also doesn’t is a lack of an answer by rational means (ie - empirical evidence, experience, and logical deduction).
Recently we had a tragedy here in St. Louis, MO at which god was obviously not present. A couple of days later, the local news stations covered prayer meetings and services being held in the area. It was pretty frustrating to watch because I don’t understand exactly who those prayers are supposed to help. The dead? The living and wounded? The loved ones left behind? How about just putting those hands to work creating an environment that prevents this situation from happening? How about those hands participating in the aftermath clean up?
It is monumentally frustrating to the point of comical how theists will attribute anything good (survivors) to god’s work, but anything bad (victims) to not being able to understand god’s plan. Seems a bit too random for me.
Gee, nothing like a logical rebuttal, elegantly constructed, and flawlessly executed. So phhttppp!!!! to you too, bub!
I like to think of myself an obliging little theist.
My point was simply that one can look at the universe, its complexity, and more important, its breathtaking efficiency, and deduce the existence of an intelligent creator as a POSSIBLE explanation. As I said, evidence is not the same as proof.
To me, if there is any reason at all to believe in a higher power, this would be it. Since I don’t believe that the Bible is the unadulterated Word of God, then really, what else is there? As Carl Sagan once wrote, “A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths.”
For whatever this is worth, I happen to think evolution itself is evidence of an intelligent creator. Evolution seems to work pretty well, I think we can both agree. Where I disagree with both fundies and atheists is in the notion that the ideas of god and evolution are mutually exclusive. It seems to me that if there is a god (a very big if, I grant you), mechanisms such evolution and the Big Bang are just how would he/she/it would go about doing it if he/she/it were everything he/she/it ws cracked up to be.
Not in the slightest. Read on.
This is where we differ. The IPU and FSM can be seen as analogous to Zeus, Osiris, Jehovah, etc., in that all are clearly the product of human imagination. But they are not analogous to the notion of god in its broader, deistic concept. I think a better analogy is the “life on other planets” one, which I broached in the other thread, and which you seem to at least partially agree with.
-smith
SI - I knew there was a reason why I have you on blog roll. This post is heartfelt and brilliant. Thanks for sharing these thoughts. And, please accept my apologies for being so late with a comment.
vis a vis your pseudo-atheistic stance
sorry, but, God doesn’t do magic
unfortunately, to figure out your own truth,
you’ll have to suspend all prejudices, without
surrendering rational thinking;
read Thomas of Aquinas . . . . if you get most of
or all of it let me know; ‘cuz I took a Thomistic
philosphy course . . . mmmmmm many years ago;
and as our prof declared at our first class one must have
experience of life first before one can grapple, expound
upon ‘Thomistic’ie. while rational philosophy is seen as
elusive & out there and not part of our experience.
Frankly, it was a class I didn’t enjoy; but truth can be
ascertain by observing & by study (phuck, I hated that part)
Anyway, go ahead. Be a serious student of these now ancient ones
I dare you
bastiaan
This is an insinuation.
Who are you, you “Spanish Inquisitor” and others, to mock the existence of Catholicism and my belief?
So you think that God does not exist because you don’t see His mercy in your traffic accidents, your natural disasters and your taxes???
You think that God does not exist because He is not fixing your problems. You think that God should fix every situation when something goes wrong, because “people are dieing”. I’ll tell you what; God wants to help us, He does not want people to die and yet you are somewhat correct: Why is this still happening?. God gave everyone free will, which is why you can say such things. God allows us to do what we want, and so when we break a leg, or get cancer, it is painful. Why? It’s free will. God gave this TOTAL free will, as in free will in PAIN and HAPPINESS. Therefore, anyone can cut their arm off, and have it literally cut off; there is nothing stopping you in religion. You can also live a life of Atheism or another religion totally opposite the call of God and still do it without a barrier. Life is a test to see what you do, and in the end, all will be judged on their life.
Maybe you still don’t get my message. Ok, so what about the Holocausts? There was more then one, as I am sure you know. Where was God? I’ll tell you; God was, is and will be everywhere. Watching. Quietly. Seeing your pain AND your destruction. His actions at this point? You’re right: nothing that we can see with our eyes.
However, note how some people escaped from pain, were miraculously saved from “incurable” diseases. How? Faith. Faith in God, and His works. As I mentioned, He dosn’t work so that we can see His actions. We can see His good works when people have Faith in themselves and in God; and depending on His plans, physical miracles can be seen. You’ve probably heard of many seemingly “impossible” miracles. How where these caused? You can’t explain them. I just have.
Now, I realize that there are laws in the world today that tell people not to be racist, especially against religion. Therefore, I am only posting this reply in favor of Christianity. I do not mean to offend anyone at any point; this post is only meant as something to think about. Now, let me ask you something. How legal is it to criticize my beliefs? My religion? Why are you doing this? When I read your post, I wasn’t mad at your thoughts, I was actually just disappointed in the fact you’ve mocked me, and all of Christianity.
So, I imagine, in nature of those who are defeated in reason, you might have some “lengthy” discussions. Please send these to my e-mail if you’d like to discuss.
Friend, I mean not to be enemies, let us instead be friends with opposite opinions! Peace be with you and your thoughts.
dorenty -
Let me be clear. Mock. Mock. Mock.
I find it interesting that those who complain the most that someone dares to criticize or mock their religion or beliefs seem to have a less than passing acquaintance the basics of English grammar, spelling, and effective writing. Which is not, of course, a crime, but when you pile that failure on top of the usual muddy thinking and failure to think, you end up with long posts as comprehensible and readable as mud in the middle of the night during a rainstorm.
Defeated in reason, my ass. Do you think you could try to be a little more arrogant? We atheists have high standards for arrogance, but we earned them by actually thinking. You haven’t.
Let me be clear, “Ric” and all you “atheists” as you so call yourselves.
First off, note how I’m the only one talking peacefully. You’re complaining about war and devastation everywhere, peace starts from the heart. Not from ‘anti-religious’ posts.
Can I ask you a question? When YOU die, what do YOU believe will become of you? And don’t give me this “Oh, my body’s gonna decompose and all the elements will eventually return to the earth”. What will happen to your conscience; or do you just vanish, disappear, become.. nothing??
I believe in Heaven and Hell. I believe Heaven is meant for those whose names are written in the Book of Life. If one’s name is not written in that book, they are cast into the “pit of eternal flame”; ‘eternal flame’ being very literal.
Another question: Why not believe in God? What is wrong with that? I’ve already explained why the most extreme devastation and disasters are never prevented by God. So why not? Why be so rebellious?
I’m praying for all you atheists and those of you confused in religion.
Well, that’s peaceful, isn’t it? Believe or be thrown into a pit of eternal flame. What are you like when you’re not peaceful?
Imagine for a moment if I asked you the same question yet followed it by saying, “and don’t give me this ‘oh I’ll go on to live forever in Heaven’”. That would hardly make my question a sincere one, would it? Once again, are you sure you’re being peaceful? I’m thinking insincerity is probably not a good foundation for establishing peace.
Yeah, that was a great Sabbath album. I was just listening to that yesterday, actually. It’s hard to imagine Sabbath without Ozzy, but on that album Dio really rocked and made it his.
Yeah, well that could take awhile. Short answer is there’s no good reason to and I think it’s best to believe in only credible things.
Sounds like you’re the one confused in religion, but of course anyone IN religion would be confused by definition. Anyway, I’m hoping for you to overcome that confusion someday.
Have a nice day, and I’ll leave you with this.
“Phillychief” - for you especially:
I know all the questions I ask will be answered with somewhat of a “dead end”; as in there is nothing else taking place after the event that I’ve asked you about. For example DEATH; why are you reluctant to answer my question on what will happen to YOU, ‘phillychief’? What will become of you? What will become of your conscience? Are you scared to answer these? At least I have reason to be scared and to be joyful.
Peace, again.
Ooooo! DEATH! In capital letters. Wow, that’s got me quivering in my atheist boots, Jimmy boy.
I suspect a good many atheists may feel a little nervous about death, but not because they’re afraid of it. It’s an unknown. But guess what… most of us don’t obsess over it. Most of us don’t give a damn about it in any metaphysical way.
Dead’s dead. There’s nothing left over. No conscience. No ’spirit’. No ’soul’. No nothing. We’re not going anywhere when it’s over. Thankfully, because if we were we would undoubtedly have to listen to the likes of you, with your whiny badgering and metaphysical idiocy that you seem to think passes for intelligent thought.
You’ve made up your mind, or had it made up for you by your brainwashers. Fine. Good for you. Me, I think there’s something wrong with you. You haven’t said anything intelligent or even particularly interesting yet, just babbled the usual impenetrable gobbledygook, and that’s all you’ve got to offer. No matter what anyone says to you here, you come back with the same crap you started with. You’re not interested in opening your mind to other possibilities that are discussed here and on other intelligent blogs every day. Okay, fine. It’s your mind. Do whatever you want with it, but stop inflicting it on people who aren’t interested, who aren’t going to change their minds - certainly not on the basis of the pathetic babble you offer. You don’t want a discussion, you want a conversion to your narrow band of thought. No sale.
Alright you “atheists”, now for the last truth:
I am not “Jim Dorenty”.
I am younger then 20 years old.
The “Jim Dorenty” part of this blog and it’s replies were done as a survey to see the reaction of “atheists”.
Thank you; you’ve represented your blindness very well.
“Jim Dorenty” will not blog here again, and nor will the creator be visiting to see any replies.
Ah shucks, on both counts.
Jim D
What conscious thoughts did you have prior to your conception and birth? That’s the consciousness I will have when I die.
My conscience is clear.
And I hope you pass your class. Maybe when you grow up and use your education, and your brain, you’ll be able to come back and have an intelligent conversation with us.
Wow, what is he, ten years old, and already well-versed in the arts of deceit and lies. Christ would be so proud!
Yeah. You wouldn’t see any of us pretending to be someone we aren’t. None of us would pretend that we are ignorant theists, unable to spell, or even carry on intelligent conversation, goading theists into saying stupid things or creating silly alter egos. We’re beyond those types of juvenile antics. If we have something to say, we say it.
Spanqi, what are you trying to say?
I wrote that last comment tongue in cheek, and I think you know who I’m referring to. Maybe she’ll come here and add her $.01.
I guess if it’s done for a laugh, in a farcical way, even at the expense of the other side, I really don’t have a problem with it. But when its done with a serious intention to get a good grade in your Apologetics 101 course at the Bible college, that’s somehow despicable. If the teacher put him up to it, he’s reinforcing the “lying for Jesus” concept.
Does that really have to be reinforced? I thought it just came naturally, in fact clearly necessary in order to keep the machine humming.
Not trying to change any minds but I believe there has to be some kind of afterlife, and possibly a god. My reason being; my buddy and I got drunk one night and decided to commit suicide. Pretty much out of drunken stupidity, but that is besides the point. The point is my father passed away when I was fifteen years old,(eight days before my birthday) five months later my buddy and I attempted suicide by crashing my car into a ditch intersecting the street at a good 85 MPH (according to the police report). We were wearing to seat belts and my head crashed through the windshield, there was a hole the size of my head in it anyway. Regardless, we both should have been severely injured or died. This happened at 3 A.M. on December 10, 2005, my fathers’ birthday, and I would like to think that he was there for me somehow. It would be a pretty damn strange coincidence otherwise.
**We were not wearing seat belts and my head crashed through the windshield, there was a hole the size of my head in the glass anyway.
adam -
You chose to do something stupid on your dead father’s birthday and you survived, therefore god exists.
Because lots of people have survived bad accidents and stupid decisions, god exists.
Must have been some hell of a hit on the head.
And besides, how do you know you didn’t die and this isn’t the afterlife?
Adam, I appreciate your intuitive sense that a supernatural phenomena occurred there, but if you really analyze it, you’ll find that there is no evidence whatsoever that your dead father intervened. None. As Ric notes, lots of people survive accidents, even intentional acts to do themselves in. Statistically, someone has to survive, and you happened to be the one. The wrong lesson here is that your father had something to do with it.
Even if you believe that there was some unseen hand in the process, why your father? Why not your great grand-father. Or a teacher from your past? Or a total stranger? Positing divine intervention overly complicates matters. Go look up Occam’s Razor.
You want to know where God was? God was protecting the people fighting in the war who are protecting you and your right to say stupid stuff like this.
I wonder, How can you dare you say “Where is God” when he is the one giving you every breath of air you take in?
Another thing is God dosen’t have “magical powers.” God has the power to do whatever he wants. Everything happens for a reason.
Charles says:
Really? He’s a piss poor protector then. 4000 dead, 60,000 wounded.
How quaint. Sounds like magic.
Really. What exactly is the reason you believe such nonsense?
Then why be upset about this blog or anything written here? Clearly all of this is your god’s plan, right? Therefore, being opposed to anything here is being opposed to the will of your god. Ooops! He’s not gonna like that, but then your actions aren’t a surprise to him are they, since everything happens for a reason, HIS reason, right?
What happened to free will?
If everything happens for a reason and your god can do whatever he wants, can he change the reason? If he can and does, what does that say about things that happened before for the former reason? At the time it happened for a reason but now it’s reasonless? What if he can’t change the reason? Then he can’t do whatever he wants.
Bonus question, Chuck: Is everything he wants to do good, or is what he does considered good simply because he does it?
Yikes Chuck, it seems you’ve got some thinking to do, or perhaps not if you wish to keep believing your fairy tale.
Take care, and have a nice day.
I came upon your site by accident, which I must say for those who would not believe in providence. I enjoyed reading this post as well as the comments. I like to hear what others are thinking and I spend time talking with people about what they believe or in this case disbelieve. The encouraging thing I find here is the deep desire to find God. Maybe no one here will admit or wants to admit that their driving force for their disbelief in the existance of God is rooted in their disappointment in God. The evidence of your search for God is in your diligent work to prove there is not a God. We don’t waste our time on the things we do not believe in, we move on to other things. The fact that so many would share their angst about something that doesn’t exist just tells me about the dissappointment they have in the God they want to deny because they are dissapointed in and angry at Him. Additionally, it is evidence of the hope you have, while in your pursuit to prove the non-existence of God, to actually find Him. It is a hope to prove yourself wrong. There is no honesty in hoping we are alone, believing that if we all would or could word hard enough we will make the world a better place, afer all we’ve been working at it for billions of years, if you believe we’ve been here that long, and we still suck at getting it right. Frankly, the hope of God is a great alternative to our best efforts.
So, keep searching to not find Him. Please, seek searching.
john hobbs -
Wow! That is fucking amazing. How about a dose of reality?
Atheists talk about religion not because they want it, but for other reasons. But the big one is that people like you keep insisting, on no basis of fact or reason or evidence, that you are right and the rest of us are wrong. You keep trying to mold society to fit your Dark Ages morality, and we keep fighting back. We do not accept the idea that god, any god, exists. There is no good reason to believe that god exists. And you, with all your twaddle and arrogance, can’t produce the tiniest bit of evidence that any god exists.
As long as you and your cohorts keep pushing your stupid beliefs on us, we will keep fighting back. And that is not a sign that we are seeking to find god. It’s a sign that we seek to keep your ridiculous and deadly beliefs from corrupting and destroying society, democracy, and freedom.
And any goddamed atheist worth his salt knows that no one can prove god doesn’t exist, no more than you can prove it does. So please, get with the program before you come in here spouting nonsense and idiocy. Go to American Atheists’ website and see if you can actually understand what the hell we’re talking about.
And do something about your logic and understanding of psychology. Neither one is working for you.
Ric-
Does this mean that everyone who thinks like me needs to check our logic or all those who simply don’t think the way you do.
Is it that we live in a world where only those things you can personally explain exist. Or is there a possibility that there is something beyond your logic. Maybe a higher logic you have not yet grasped or even the source of logic itself.
Is it that proof quantifies existence. If that were the case, many of the things you speak about on your personal blogs would have never been discovered because no one would believe in the possibility of something beyond their logic. How dangerous. The fact that there is no acceptable proof to your mind, does not disqualify what someone elso knows simply because you refuse to accept it or cannot logically understand it or explain it.
So while you have the right to reject what others may know, it still does not make it non-existent. If being wrong always needs proof to change our thinking or behavior then many will pay a high price for others to learn.
In my case it’s not that you are wrong but rather I was wrong just like you. If you want to be wrong that is certainly your demacratic free right though costly. I have many friends who do not hold my beliefs as a believer in God and follower of Jesus. That’s OK, it’s their choice. I respect the choice but if they are my friends I care about the cost and consequences of being wrong.
That to you may seem arrogant, but that must mean that all who disagree with you and see your conclusions as wrong are arrogant. The height of arrogance is when you think you know it all, which in this case I happen to not know it all, I just happen to know God and you don’t.
If you understand history and science by which many use and find a pattern of logic to follow, you will see that logic and faith (the physical and spiritual universe) are not incompatable. The scientific community would not call it faith but many of the discoveries we have made were first believed before they could be proved. Many logical atheist in the scientific field believe in the existence of things they cannot prove yet. This does not keep them from the pursuit of the proof, nor does it keep them from their belief that they are right. It also means they may be right about something they may never prove. Many have proven things through imperical evidence that others in the same logical community would deny. The denial does not change what others know.
Man is not the origin of logic, then we would know all things and have no need to search for answers. Our logic is flawed at best. It is impossible for man to be purely logical without emotion falling into our reason. Therefore, the origin of logic is outside of ourselves. The origin of logic is higher than ours. In order to get from our logic to it’s source it takes faith. We must believe the origin of pure logic we seek answers from must be like us but above us. Greater than us. That it exists as much as we exist. Therefore it would be logical that we were created by it. To to recognize this and believe this takes a step into a place where we have no proof, a logic that leads us to a step of faith. This step of faith in God brings the proof we seek. Logic will lead us to the end of ourselves, a dissatisfaction and a longing for more which cannot be found in ourselves - so where then do you go?
When you get to the end of your life and look back, without God and the hope of something beyond your limited logic, you will find yourself evaluating the life you lived. It will be the sum total of the value of your life. Maybe it was a good one, maybe not. But, if you don’t know there is a God, you’ll be wondering if it was all worth it. The truth is, when you know it’s all over and ther is nothing more, you’ll say “that sucks, I wish there was more, I want more, but that’s it!?” It is faith that find’s your proof and it doesn’t seem logical, but that’s because He is God and were not.
You will never satisfy the longings in you heart with human logic. You need more. That more that’s missing in all our lives is God.
If it’s arrogant to say so that’s not my intention. The motivation is not elitism, it’s love. Love does not say “Do whatever you want without giving a warning about possible dangers.” None of my kids like me to say they are wrong either but if you love them, you tell them. If they don’t listen or believe you, that’s their free choice. But, we tell them anyway because we know the dangers. The ones who don’t know the dangers are the ones who say they don’t see the proof.
Love allows choice but is not silent. Love is an emotion and not always logical or rational. It is also a practical action. But if because it is an emotion and not logic that you would reject this argument then you would be intillectially dishonest to say you don’t need love over logic.
God loves you. Look for Him in hopes to find Him and you will. He can answer your doubts. I challenge any of you to honestly step past your logic for a moment to the possibility that God exists. Humor me. Ask God to prove to you personally that He is real. You don’t even have to call it prayer. Use whatever language you you want. He’s a big boy, He can take it. Seriously ask Him. What have you got to lose? Doubt? Or is there a little fear that He might be out there?
Ask God to prove Himself to you! See what happens.
Dear god and john hobbs,
Piss off.
Thank you,
Ric
BTW, it’s spelled intellectually, not intillectially.
That’s just nonsense.
No, proof quantifies REASON to accept that something exists. No proof = no reason. There could be fairies, I don’t know, but I have no proof for their existence so I have no reason to believe they exist.
No, Ric has made a choice and you have made a choice, which is a joy of both a demacracy and a democracy. We can’t know if either is definitely right or wrong, although one choice gives no reason to support it being right.
No you don’t. You think you do, like the people who think they know aliens.
Because THEY HAVE A REASON TO. That’s not faith.
No, just yours is, as evidenced in that first sentence, in many before and in plenty immediately following, which is why I’m now going to stop quoting and responding because the nonsense is making my brain hurt and I feel my IQ dropping.
Johnhobbs said:
Done that hundreds, maybe thousands, of times.
I’m still waiting.
Let me elaborate a bit on my last comment.
I tried to read and make sense of Hobbs’ comments. Unfortunately for him, his writing is muddy and turgid. Bad writing is a certain sign of confused, muddy thinking. One of the great discoveries of my life is that bad writing is not worth reading. It’s a waste of time and effort and eyesight.
And it is generally the hallmark of people whose minds are trapped in religious quagmires. And yet they are so offended when people don’t understand them, or don’t want to bother reading their crap - ‘but but but it’s god’s word coming straight from my inspired mouth’.
So to John Hobbs and the rest of his brain-fogged cohorts, I say go learn to think and learn to write, because right now you can’t seem to do either and nobody but your own will take you seriously until you do.
We may not be a bunch of geniuses around here (apologies to any of us who are), but pretty much everyone who hangs out here regularly can write clear sentences and paragraphs that express their thoughts and thinking on these matters. You, Mr. Hobbs, cannot.
Thus, piss off.
Apology accepted, Ric.
I don’t think he was talking to you.
-smith (getting bored with all these championships)